The Great Gatsby - Part II - Glennallen AP English Literature & Composition

The Great Gatsby - Part II

4/24/2013

The second half of F. Scott Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby concerns these key issues in the novel:

Gatsby's past and how it relates to his life in West Egg
The shifting moral code of the 1920s
The American dream
Disenfranchised people

Post a message that responds to one of the following questions concerning these issues. Make sure to comment on a topic you haven't addressed previously. Remember to be specific in your response and to refer to the novel to support your ideas.

What have you learned about Gatsby's character, and how do you judge him — is he a failure, a romantic, a great man, or something else?
If Fitzgerald were alive today, would he find American society corrupted by materialism and a lack of morality? Or would he be impressed by the gains that the disenfranchised have made?
Daisy chooses not to make a statement that she always loved Gatsby and never loved Tom. Explain whether you agree or disagree with Daisy's decision, which essentially means she'll stop seeing Gatsby and stay married to Tom.
What is Fitzgerald's commentary on the American dream, and do you agree or disagree with his position?

As a follow-up posting, comment on whether you agree or disagree, and why, with another student's posting.

35 Comments

Megan Wall

4/24/2013 07:58:52 am

I agree with Daisy’s decision to not say she always loved Gatsby and never loved Tom mainly because she said herself that “‘Even alone I can’t say I never loved Tom,’ she admitted in a pitiful voice, ‘It wouldn’t be true’” (Chapter 7, Page 133). If she were to go along with Gatsby’s plan to leave Tom, she would have been living a lie. Although, by the way she talks to and about Tom I do not believe she fully loves him either. During the scene where Tom and Gatsby are fighting over Daisy, she tells Tom that he “disgusts” her. Telling your spouse that they disgust you isn’t exactly what a marriage counselor would recommend. That being said, I commend Daisy for not risking the end of her marriage on a whim of emotion, but I do not think staying with an abusive and adulterous husband is the best choice she could have made.

Hannah Cox link

4/24/2013 10:18:13 am

I agree with you Megan; I think that she made both a good and bad choice when looked at from certain angles. It seems quite difficult to tell whether she truly loves either Tom or Gatsby at this point. What she does, she does in self-interest. She will not be happy with Tom, but she will not feel safe and comfortable with Gatsby. It seems that her choice was really between one lie or another. She is certainly not living the truth with Tom.

Carley

4/25/2013 04:46:30 am

I think she would be more safe with Gatsby considering he has no history of domestic abuse

Emily

4/24/2013 02:19:54 pm

I also agree with you Megan, Daisy's decision was ambivalent, but it was best for her to stay with Tom.

Mackenzie

4/25/2013 05:10:05 am

I totally agree with you, Megan. I believe that either way Daisy would not have been happy. If she would have left Tom she would have had to leave her child and would completely be living a lie by saying that she never loved him. However, I don't think she will ever be happy with Tom because of the way he treats her and especially now that their marriage is so fragile.

Hannah Cox link

4/24/2013 10:11:23 am

4. Fitzgerald's portrayal of the American dream is not a flattering one. Everyone who could be considered as having it -- Daisy, Tom, Gatsby, Jordan -- are not content in any sense. They are always seeking something more fulfilling, and always it is out of their reach. A part of this discontent can be seen in Chapter 7, where Daisy cries, “What'll we do with ourselves this afternoon?...and the day after that, and the next thirty years?” (Ch.7, pg.118) Daisy is so discontented that she is already worrying about the far future and what she will have done with herself. Likewise, as Daisy slips from Gatsby's grasp, the narrator says, “...only the dead dream fought on as the afternoon slipped away, trying to touch what was no longer tangible, struggling unhappily, undespairingly, toward that lost voice across the room.” (Ch. 7, pg. 134) Particularly after this point in the book, Fitzgerald begins to use words and images that reflect something of the momentary nature and the emptiness of the American dream and those that seem to have it: “made accidental, isolated, like ghosts,” “standing there in the moonlight -- watching over nothing,” “It was dawn now..., filling the house with gray-turning, gold-turning light. The shadow of a tree fell abruptly across the dew and ghostly birds began to sing among the blue leaves.” All of the noise, raucousness, and socializing of the first half of the book are contrasted with the silence and emptiness of the last half. By this Fitzgerald is saying that all that was seen as the American dream fades away, giving way to desolation; there is no substance to it, essentially. The narrator seems to describe the American dream very concisely at the very end of the book: “It was all very careless and confused.”

Mika

4/24/2013 02:00:15 pm

I agree with you. The American dream may seem great at first, but in the end is truly empty.

Mika

4/24/2013 01:55:44 pm

I agree with Daisy's desicion. "She wanted her life shaped now, immediately- and the decision must be made by some force- of love, of money, of unquestionable practicality." (ch. 8, pg. 159) She believed Tom was that "force" and her way into accomplishing her American dream. And she admitted that at one point she did love Tom. If Daisy's American dream doesn't include Gatsby, then i agree with her choice. However, I think that she should find someone else suitable for her American dream, because Tom is abusive and controls her rather than truly loves her.

Kendall

4/24/2013 02:15:48 pm

Mika I totally agree with you! Your quote was perfect and very convincing of your opinion. Also I loved that you associated her decision with her pursuit of the American dream it makes a lot of sense and that is something I hadn't thought of. Great Job!! :)

Megan Wall

4/24/2013 03:44:02 pm

I like how you connected Tom to the "force" seeing as how he is very forceful. Although she said she loved Tom, I struggle to believe that that is her true feelings, she is a very inconsistent character.

Tristan

4/25/2013 02:06:17 pm

I agree with what you said. I like the text you referenced and the idea that she should find someone else.

Kendall

4/24/2013 02:11:59 pm

#3. Its kind of toss up with whether I agree or disagree with Daisy. I'm not the biggest fan of Daisy because I think she is very self absorbed and is only interested in benefiting herself. I say this for a couple reasons, first we see that she is unable to wait for her "lover" to return from the war, so instead she marries Tom who is rich and husky looking in which she sees as a security blanket. Secondly, when Gatsby is reintroduced into Daisy's life she almost automatically forget about Tom and goes for Gatsby. She does this again as a selfish act because she is bored with the life Tom and her have so she sees Gatsby as the next best thing, adventure and excitement. The last and most obvious example of Daisy's selfishness is revealed clearly when she lets Gatsby take the blame for the death of Myrtle and then picks up and leaves the scene so she wasn't caught. This ultimately causes Gatsby to be murdered by the rightfully angry Wilson. You would think that the death of a "beloved" would bring back they're partner, but surprise, surprise this doesn't seem to be the case for Daisy. Instead she never calls, never writes and never comes back to grieve for the loss of her so called lover or even friend. These actions of hers leave me with a bitter taste and therefore leads me to dislike her. On page 187 of chapter 9, there is a great paragraph that helps to justify my feelings about Daisy. "They were careless people, Tom and Daisy-they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness or whatever kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made." In the end I guess I agree with Daisy's decision not to state that she always loved Gatsby because I don't think she did. I think she stopped loving him after he left for war and the excitement, adventure and security of him was gone. When he came back into her life I think the memory of his excitement came back to Daisy but not her love for him. I think she loves the idea of something new and different which Gatsby provided upon his return.

Hannah H

4/24/2013 04:20:05 pm

WOW, Kendall I loved your quote! It truely sumed up the real reason they are still together and why Daisy is so comfortable with him.

Mary Sine

4/24/2013 05:19:42 pm

I completely agree with you on Daisy, she is very self absorbed and the quote sums up her and Tom completely. I agree that Daisy was probably just looking for excitement with Gatsby and in the end stays with the man just like her, Tom.

Emily

4/24/2013 02:17:29 pm

3. I think that Daisy's choice to stay with Tom was the best for her, even though it wasn't for Gatsby. Daisy just had a kid with Tom, she can't just up and leave her, or even really take her away from her father. Also, Daisy admits to Gatsby that she loved Tom. It's obvious Tom loves her, even if he strays or gets angry at her. Tom provides a home for Daisy and always has, and it wouldn't be fair to ditch him for someone who showed up out of the blue with more money.

Ariana

4/25/2013 03:14:42 am

Emily, I like how you brought up how Daisy has a kid with Tom. I totatlly forgot about this & this could be a critical reason on why Daisy decided to to stay with Tom. Maybe she was doing the best thing for that child? Or the best thing according to her outlook.

Kelti Lorence

4/25/2013 04:38:27 am

Though I see your point, I disagree. Daisy wants nothing more than for her daughter to be a fool so she doesn't have to be exposed to the heartbreak and complicated life she has experienced with men. Though Daisy appears to love her daughter, crooning for her to, "Come to your mother that loves you" (pg. 123), she dismisses her almost instantly. She makes no attempt to spend time with her daughter. It could be part of what keeps the family together, but I feel it is a very small impact on the decision. And Gatsby did not show up out of the blue, he was Daisy's first true love and they were almost engaged. She knows he was in the area of her home, she just never went to see him before. I believe the main reason she chose Tom was the fact that in the end she did have true feelings for him. She has grown up and is no longer the teenage girl Gatsby originally claimed.

hannah H

4/24/2013 04:16:37 pm

I agree with Daisy’s decision to stay true to herself and her marriage and not give into Gatsby’s pressure, although I do not completely agree with her choice of staying with Tom. Obviously Gatsby did not fulfill Daisy’s desires as she stated , after Gatsby pressured to her to admit she never loved Tom, “I can’t say I never loved Tom… It wouldn’t be true.” (pg. 133) At the same time, her actions and emotions suggests that she doesn’t truly love Tom either. At one point she tells Tom that he “disgusts” her. I find it hard to believe that she would stay with someone of Tom’s character; Abusive, unfaithful, and controlling. But Daisy is true to herself, “she wanted her life shaped now, immediately and the decision must be made by some force- of love, of money, or of unquestionable practicality,” (pg. 159) and that desire led her to choose Tom.

Carley

4/25/2013 03:31:45 am

I don't necessarily agree with you, but the evidence you use supports your opinion. Do you think Daisy was really being true to herself by giving in to her desires or was she just taking an easy way out because she was tired of waiting for Gatsby?

Celeste

4/25/2013 05:12:32 am

While I see what you are saying, I don't think I see it that way. "I glanced at Daisy, who was staring terrified between Gatsby and her husband, and at Jordan, who had begun to balance an invisible but absorbing object on the tip of her chin. Then I turned back to Gatsby — and was startled at his expression. He looked — and this is said in all contempt for the babbled slander of his garden — as if he had “killed a man.” For a moment the set of his face could be described in just that fantastic way.It passed, and he began to talk excitedly to Daisy, denying everything, defending his name against accusations that had not been made. But with every word she was drawing further and further into herself, so he gave that up, and only the dead dream fought on as the afternoon slipped away, trying to touch what was no longer tangible, struggling unhappily, undespairingly, toward that lost voice across the room.The voice begged again to go.“Please, Tom! I can’t stand this any more.”Her frightened eyes told that whatever intentions, whatever courage, she had had, were definitely gone." (pg 135) To me this quote is saying that Gatsby loves Daisy, but he realizes that he lost her he is letting her go back to Tom. He knows that he will always love her and will love him but he didn't win. I also took it as she was forced into choosing Tom. At the end of the quote it says that whatever courage she had was gone. It sounds like to me that at the beginning of the night it looked good for Gatsby but Tom's forceful ways made her chose him. I don't think that she made the right choice I think that honestly she shouldn't have chosen either of them and see who would have stuck around. I don't think Tom would have. This is before Myrtle died he could have gone and found her or some other woman. I think that Gatsby would have stayed with Daisy.

Brady

4/29/2013 05:06:00 pm

Is there anything that Tom could have done to make her leave or would she have stayed with him through anything and what makes her stay? Is this representative of the culture of the time?

Mary Sine

4/24/2013 05:15:16 pm

If Fitzgerald were alive today, I have a feeling that he would probably think that American society is still corrupted by materialism and a lack of morality. There is still a large amount of materialism in American culture, like who has the latest technology, the trendiest brands, and the latest new smartphone. Having money and material wealth is still coveted in many of the cultures of the world, especially in America. The lack of morality is also easily seen in society, especially when you look at the ruthless people who seek pleasure and wealth without a thought for the feelings or well-being of others. But I think that Fitzgerald would also be able to see all of the good things that are around in our current society. There are many people out there who are good people, who care about others and who try to help others. There are hundreds of foundations and organizations that are there to help other societies develop, to help people in need, to make sure that people aren’t forgotten by everyone. I think that Fitzgerald would be impressed by the many gains of the disenfranchised, because of the Civil Rights Movement and all of the other events that have happened. American society is a very complex thing, and Fitzgerald would probably have mixed feelings about, like many other people do.

Ariana

4/25/2013 03:11:17 am

2. If Fitzgerald were aliave today, would he find American society corrupted by materialism and lack of morality? Or would he be imoresses by the gains that the disenfranchised have made?
Although I, and most of society, would like to think that society in America cares more about family, happiness and love; I do not think that is the case. Although he might be impressed by the laws speaking of equality and such, the downfalls of society would leave him thinking the same as the 1920s. Society in America still have a need for materialism and have a lack of morality. Americans must have the latest technology, nicest car, high-end clothes, and biggest house. Also the lack of morality, I think, has gotton worse. People seek wealth, pleasure and these cause things like murder, theft and other negative things to occur. It seems as if people also crave attention, causing them to want to be known; and most do not care how this attention is recieved. Overall it is hard to say how Fitzgerlad would react because only he can tell us his true opinion.

Lacayah

4/30/2013 04:46:27 pm

I agree. Only Fitzgerald can say...

Carley

4/25/2013 03:22:16 am

Throughout the story, more and more about Gatsby has been revealed to us. At first I believed he was this mysterious, standoff-ish tycoon who just wanted to throw lavish parties. But now, even though Gatsby is still covered in a shroud of mysterious, we as readers are more able to see him for who he really is—a man with a dream. When he was much younger, he was just a poor kid with no home. He met Daisy and soon fell in love with her and her luxurious lifestyle. As the summer went on, the two fell more in love, but Gatsby knew in the fall he would have to leave. They said their goodbyes and he went off to war. While he was away, Daisy began to need her life to be “shaped” and decisions to be made, so she married Tom Buchanan, the “wholesome choice”. Daisy eventually sent a letter to Gatsby informing him that she was married. Crushed, but not defeated, Gatsby carried on in life with his dream swaying every decision he made. His dream was to be with Daisy and he would stop at nothing to get her. He does everything he can to impress her, but Gatsby knows she needs to choose either him or Tom. However, he does not realize that Daisy might actually have moved on from him with the way he assumes she loves him. “You don’t understand, you’re not going to take care of her anymore…. Daisy’s leaving you.” (pg. 140) but as we know, she chooses to stay with Tom. Some might say he is dumb for never letting go of Daisy for this long, but I see him as a man who’s hopelessly in love with a girl who tries to forget he exists. Part of me feels bad for him because they seemed deep in love before Gatsby left for the war but a part of me is annoyed because obviously she doesn’t love him the same way so he just needs to forget her and move on.

Kelti Lorence

4/25/2013 04:27:19 am

1. I am impressed with Gatsby's good intentions and how romantic and devoted to Daisy he is even years later and after traveling abroad. He goes to great lengths to impress her, and never loses sight of his goal even with the multiple female distractions that enter his house almost every night. Though his dream has inspired him to be successful and wealthy, both good qualities earned through hard work, I think he is a bit dillusional and immature. A grown man, he does not seem to realize that Daisy moved on and is married now, and that he should not be trying to sabatoge a family simply to fulfill his youthful desires. If he could have accepted this fact and moved on with his life, beginning with moving away from Daisy, I would have overlooked his current silly antics and seen him as a truly successful man.

Celeste Yahr

4/25/2013 04:51:05 am

Fitzgerald's commentary on the American Dream is that it is not all it is cracked up to be. I think that the characters he created support this fully. Tom has had money since he was little and has never known life without it. Technically he should be happy because he is "living the dream." But for some reason he is still not content and has a mistress. Throughout the book Fitzgerald adds scenes that show us how everyone "living the dream" is miserable. Myrtle threw herself in front of a car because she was so distressed with everything. I do agree with Fitzgerald's commentary because if you strive for the ideal thought of the American Dream you will never be happy. Money can't buy you happiness it only buys things that fill voids in you. Soon those will deteriorate and you will have to replace them.

Mackenzie Cyr

4/25/2013 05:06:59 am

When Daisy chooses not to make a decision on whether she has always loved Gatsby and never Tom, I believe that she is being indecisive. I don't agree with her decision to stay with Tom, but I understand it. Although I don't think Daisy loved Tom the way she loved Gatsby, I do believe she had feelings for him and she felt a sense of security with him. On page 139 when Gatsby makes Daisy tell Tom that she never loved him, she says it with hesitation. "Why,-how could I love him-possibly?" She doesn't directly answer the question which makes readers believe that she doesn't fully believe what she is saying. All in all I don't agree with Daisy's decision to be with Tom because I don't believe it is what she really, truly wants. However, she made the right decision because she has a child and is already married to Tom and it is her responsibility to follow through with the decisions she has made.

Tristan Rude

4/25/2013 02:03:39 pm

I agree with the decision that Daisy made regarding wether or not she would say she never loved Tom. It was just about the only time she ever showed any real backbone. It was better to not lie to everyone, it would have hurt Tom a lot and Gatsby would have kept on living in his false dream. However, there would definitely have been less complications if she had lied and just kept on going with what Gatsby wanted.

Brady

4/29/2013 05:03:10 pm

Fitzgerald's representation of the American Dream is not a good one. He is disgusted with people "needing" so much in order to be happy. Then he goes on to say that they don't even find happiness and that the material gains just mask their depression and loneliness. One symbol that Fitzgerald keeps referring to is the green light. "Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us." (Pg. 189) The things that we didn't have in the past we strive for in the future. Fitzgerald's point is that if we strive for what we didn't have we will never be satisfied with what we do have. This is his portrayal of the American Dream.

Jacob Jones

5/7/2013 03:51:17 pm

I agree that Fitzgerald's representation of the American dream is not good, and i also agree that if you strive for something you will never be happy with what you already have.

Lacayah

4/30/2013 04:45:08 pm

2-If Fitzgerald were alive today, would he find American society corrupted by materialism and a lack of morality? Or would he be impressed by the gains that the disenfranchised have made?
I think that if Fitzgerald could see the American society of today, he would think that, morally, nothing changed. Everyone is simply trying to get ahead in life in their own way. As far as the disenfranchised do, the type of people who fall under that category has changed. However, there is still a portion of the population that is disenfranchised so things really haven't changed to much. I think that Fitzgerald would be dissapointed that, ultimately, nothing is any different that the 20's. Still, I don't think that he would be too suprised.

Jacob Jones

5/7/2013 03:51:52 pm

Fitzgerald’s commentary on the American dream is that it will never work, because at the end of the novel Fitzgerald includes many different tragedies. He is saying that the American dream is something that everyone tries to achieve, for example love, high status, wealth, and power, but not many people achieve it if any, and people will do anything to try and achieve, that American dream. I agree with Fitzgerald that the American dream cannot not be reached. I think that the American dream is just a dream that people try to achieve, because they think that they will have wealth, power, love, and high status. However, I do think that if you try to achieve the American dream it might make you happy if you achieve part of it, even though there will always be something for you to try for.

Trevor

5/13/2013 04:43:39 pm

I really like your more positive views on not being able to reach the American Dream. I totally agree that if anything, it will keep a person occupied their whole life if they don't get to frustrated or fail as bad a Gatsby did.

Trevor

5/13/2013 04:39:55 pm

I think Gatsby is a failure. He has done very little with his life. He has obtained all his money illegally and is doing nothing productive with it. He uses all his money simply to create a wild image of himself. He hosts the best parties in New York and does not seem interested in doing anything positive with his money. Everything he does is centered around winning Daisy. He is very selfish. He has no drive to make a positive impact on the world. Also, Gatsby has no regard for anyone else’s dreams. He is basically setting out to destroy Tom’s by stealing away his wife. He doesn’t even really care about Nick. He only uses Nick to access Daisy. He has Nick throw him a tea party where he can reunite with Daisy. He even acts like Nick isn’t even there when he shows Daisy through the house, giving Nick the impression that he should leave. Gatsby is a failure because of his selfishness.

The Great Gatsby - Part II

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